No, no. Programmers aren't mean. Managers are. But what I mean by mean is relative to extreme. I like customers. I like requirements. I like immediate feedback. I like tight code. I like reviews. I also like a heart rate in the 50's, to match my age. And models that can tell me what the code will do several years before it's written, and process manuals you can use to anchor your boat (heh). I marvel at guys who push mediocrity to the limits. No, I'm not nasty, just mean. -- WaldenMathews See also ExtremeProgrammer, or AverageProgrammer for another meaning of 'Mean' ;-) This is redundant, maybe a DeletionCandidate --- ProgrammerStereotype